The Blind Suing The Blind
When you're running a fraud and you encounter someone else running a scam, there's an unspoken rule: you don't blow it for me, I won't blow it for you. If you're a long-termer you like to keep things quiet, draw as little attention as possible. An investigation of one may draw too much attention to yourself: a classic example is someone who pretends to talk to angels won't point out that crystals from Atlantis are impossible.
After all, you may have the same customers.
Which is why it's so interesting that the Council of Natural Medicine College of Canada is being sued for giving out degrees in acupuncture - by the College of Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioners and Acupuncturists of B.C.
Looks like they've gone from the "Tradition Means It Works" fallacy to "Protecting Our Turf" mode. This should be an interesting challenge - I wonder how exactly one school is going to prove that the other doesn't know what it's doing, and is thus illegitimate?
After all, you may have the same customers.
Which is why it's so interesting that the Council of Natural Medicine College of Canada is being sued for giving out degrees in acupuncture - by the College of Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioners and Acupuncturists of B.C.
Looks like they've gone from the "Tradition Means It Works" fallacy to "Protecting Our Turf" mode. This should be an interesting challenge - I wonder how exactly one school is going to prove that the other doesn't know what it's doing, and is thus illegitimate?
Labels: Science
32 Comments:
I'm not sure who told you about the case, but it is not as you describe.
The CNMCC (Council of Natural Medicine, College of Canada) is a fraudulent credentialing agency.
The CTCMA (College of Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioners & Acupuncturists), is a government body, backed by provincial legislation.
They're suing them for violating the trademarks and health professions act.
The CNMCC is being sued, as I said, for giving out degrees - something the official body says they are not qualified to do.
That they are bing sued by the CTCMA, a group who believes that acupuncture and "traditional" medicines work better than "Western" medicines, is just icing on the cake.
Note they are being sued because of trademark violation, not because of the possible dangers of having untrained people practising medicine. There's a reason for that.
Oh great, another pseudoskeptic...
There is absolutely no basis for the accusation that the CTCMA purports traditional medicine is superior to western.
The CTCMA has nothing to do with that, they are an extension of the local Ministry of Health. The purpose and goal of the CTCMA is to bring government regulated accountability and scrutiny to the profession of complementary medicine.
Your assumptions regarding their attitudes are both wrong and irrelevant. If you were a true skeptic, you would recognize that such a body is responsible for preventing untrained practitioners from endangering and misleading the public.
The actions this particular arm of the ministry of health is taking are directly intended to protect the public from the CNMCC practitioners, who are a danger to public safety. There are also civil and criminal actions pending.
Do your homework next time...
Yup! Nothing like an anonymous commenter to earn someone's trust!
The CTCMA is a self-regulating body for a process that doesn't work. Just because someone has been "trained" in acupuncture doesn't mean that they are actually doing anything. Stopping other people from stepping on your scam doesn't make the original a good thing.
The British Government (for example) supports homeopathy, so long as it is handled by "trained professionals". Those "trained professionals" evaluate themselves as to whether any applicants to practice are competent (using the Angoff method) just like the CTCMP does.
The government supports and regulates an agency that perpetuates a fraud. If you think this veneer of respectability makes it okay, than that's up to you. I don't.
But thanks for reminding me to do my homework!
So what would you have? Just ban it? Shut it all down? Then what? You'd just create another black market, with even less accountability, and more importantly, no consumer protection or harm reduction. Traditional practitioners are like religions and drugs, they arn't going to go away no matter what the political climate is.
The ability to protect the public and keep tabs on these practitioners is what is important, not polarized debates on modern VS traditional therapy.
A free person has every right to indulge in what others consider to be wrong, delusional or stupid. No reason you could produce, from spiritual to scientific, is reason enough to tell others what to do in their public or private lives. So where does that leave us?
It may be the lesser of two evils, but compared to the alternative, I fully support what is being done by regulating traditional medicine in my province.
Now if we could only start doing the same for religions......
"A free person has every right to indulge in what others consider to be wrong, delusional or stupid."
Someone selling methamphetamines as a weight control pill: legal or not? How about tapeworm eggs?
How about selling water that's been "specially blessed" as a cure for poverty, or someone's touch as a cure for arthritis?
Psychic surgeons, pulling "cancer" out of people's bodies with their bare hands?
People try all of these things: should they be legal? Heck, in the case of the first two, they actually work - ignoring some side effects, of course. Do you think it would be a good idea to not only legalize these "cures", but to give each their own legislative body funded by taxpayers to ensure their practitioners perform up to their standards? The government is acting as the enforcers for these charlatans, giving them a legal monopoly without oversight by anyone but themselves.
"No reason you could produce, from spiritual to scientific, is reason enough to tell others what to do in their public or private lives."
How about this: you're not allowed to bilk people out of their money by promising cures that don't work. You are not allowed to be a scam artist, or a thief. You are not allowed to steal from others.
That IS telling others what to do with their private lives: should those laws be rescinded?
Please read for your own education and then you decide!?:
http://www.fraserinstitute.org/commerce.web/product_files/UnnaturalRegulation.pdf
Unfortunately, that link isn't working right now - hopefully it'll be back soon - but the Fraser Institute? Seriously? Mate, these folks would support selling your kids into slavery so long as you got fair market value for your goods.
Even so, I haven't read the report you're pointing to. I'll check back with them later when (hopefully) the link is back up.
oh yeah sorry but anyway the report is actually supporting getting rid of regulatory body's
Ok here is a part of it : http://books.google.ca/books?id=4Y5oPvK4QVwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=unnatural+regulation&source=bl&ots=dBhp3Gf_-U&sig=h1cFXsd_df0lBElijSyLFdprtBY&hl=en
In any case I agree with you Thursday. But I personally know people from the cnmcc and they just want the freedom to practice that's it, as for ctcma protcting the public from the cnmcc alot of the cnmcc practitioners are trained by ctcma dr.tcm's, it's all a joke in my point of veiw they are trained by there members but not good enough to practice, so the ctcma is protecting the public from what, people that were trained by there members and there not good enough? What dose that say about ctcma members then??
Oh and by the way this is not the same anonymous, I do not support the ctcma and there monopoly scheme it's a load if you ask me considering that acupuncture is overlaped in every profession and they can control that in anyway! The fact is even a dentist can take a 2 week course and practice acupuncture but a ctcma member Cannot practice dentistry or physio ect. But the fact is they are suing the cnmcc for what studying a 6 year program which includes there Tcm program that is set to there standards and exceeds there practitioners by a year then cnmcc members are a danger to the public PLEASE!
correction***: can't control the other professions in anyway.
Took a look at the book whose link you sent (thanks for that!), and there are the problems in it that are unfortunately typical of the Fraser Institute:
1) The assumption that market forces are always right, like when on page 11 where the fact that Canadians pay for alternative therapies "proves" that they provide a benefit;
2) That the placebo effect is enough to warrant continued use without government oversight - without considering that proof that the treatment does no harm is something that such oversight necessitates;
3) Reaching a conclusion that brand names would increase and maintain standards to a greater degree because of "competition between certifying organizations" is one hell of a leap of faith: if there are conflicting reports, people tend to choose one and disregard others. This choice is also affected by the advertising done by the competing bodies, meaning whoever spends more wins.
This holds true with the proposed "certifying agencies" replacing licences as well. It would be very easy for such agencies to abuse their powers, as alternative practitioners are VERY reluctant to call out a method that doesn't work, for fear of closer investigation into their own practices.
The Fraser Institute also often (as in this report) makes the assumption that government regulation eliminates competition and societal pressure, which is simply not true. Both of those things are still in place, as can be witnessed by (for instance) the Maple Leaf listeria disaster.
The British Petroleum nightmare going on in the gulf is a clear example of the difference between government and corporate standards: the regulators that were supposed to safeguard not only the environment but also the worker's safety failed miserably because they were influenced by the company (coke and hooker party, anyone?) into relaxing the government regulations until they were at a level the corporation wanted. There is no reason to believe that corporations, without oversight, would do any better, and plenty of reasons to believe they would do worse.
The banking system in the U.S. failed horribly, and are still fighting any kind of oversight, whereas the one in Canada - with some of the strictest regulations in the world - had not a single failure.
The Walkerton tragedy was a direct result of failure by the government to regulate water consumption - the province had slashed more than a third of those people hired to do so from its payroll. Their Drinking Water Surveillance Program was shut down, along with provincial water testing labs, leaving municipalities to use their own budgets or sell off the responsibility. (The UK had privatized water supplies in 1989, and not only did profits increase, but hepatitis A did too by 200% and dysentery by 600%. This is considered a success by unregulated free market supporters.)
So no, I'm not a fan of letting businesses or corporations regulate their own industries without any government oversight, and this Fraser Institute report hasn't convinced me otherwise. Thanks for the link, though!
So I'm confused where do you stand on this debate? Cnmcc or ctcma or nither saying practitioners of acupuncture and traditional methods of treatment should be able to practice without the the oversite or not at all? I would like your opinion but plea
ase refer back to my earlier comment saying I do know practitioners from the cnmcc and the fact that they do have the exact same training as people from the cnmcc and should the ctcma have the authority to attack the cnmcc members as they have sufficent training? They are not just some quacks that got there education from the Internet they both study the 5 year dr. Tcm program but the cnmcc members study a 6 th year of nutrition and detox protocols. So who really is more qualified? As I saw a ctcma member blab out above that the cnmcc members are under qualified if that's true so is he concidering they learn the exact same Tcm program taught by the same teachers? So what is your opinion?
i assume this is you standing on this issue:
November 19, 2007
The Blind Suing The Blind
When you're running a fraud and you encounter someone else running a scam, there's an unspoken rule: you don't blow it for me, I won't blow it for you. If you're a long-termer you like to keep things quiet, draw as little attention as possible. An investigation of one may draw too much attention to yourself: a classic example is someone who pretends to talk to angels won't point out that crystals from Atlantis are impossible.
After all, you may have the same customers.
Which is why it's so interesting that the Council of Natural Medicine College of Canada is being sued for giving out degrees in acupuncture - by the College of Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioners and Acupuncturists of B.C.
Looks like they've gone from the "Tradition Means It Works" fallacy to "Protecting Our Turf" mode. This should be an interesting challenge - I wonder how exactly one school is going to prove that the other doesn't know what it's doing, and is thus illegitimate?
The CNMCC is being sued, as I said, for giving out degrees - something the official body says they are not qualified to do.
That they are bing sued by the CTCMA, a group who believes that acupuncture and "traditional" medicines work better than "Western" medicines, is just icing on the cake.
Note they are being sued because of trademark violation, not because of the possible dangers of having untrained people practising medicine. There's a reason for that.
Yup! Nothing like an anonymous commenter to earn someone's trust!
The CTCMA is a self-regulating body for a process that doesn't work. Just because someone has been "trained" in acupuncture doesn't mean that they are actually doing anything. Stopping other people from stepping on your scam doesn't make the original a good thing.
The British Government (for example) supports homeopathy, so long as it is handled by "trained professionals". Those "trained professionals" evaluate themselves as to whether any applicants to practice are competent (using the Angoff method) just like the CTCMP does.
The government supports and regulates an agency that perpetuates a fraud. If you think this veneer of respectability makes it okay, than that's up to you. I don't.
But thanks for reminding me to do my homework!
"A free person has every right to indulge in what others consider to be wrong, delusional or stupid."
Someone selling methamphetamines as a weight control pill: legal or not? How about tapeworm eggs?
How about selling water that's been "specially blessed" as a cure for poverty, or someone's touch as a cure for arthritis?
Psychic surgeons, pulling "cancer" out of people's bodies with their bare hands?
People try all of these things: should they be legal? Heck, in the case of the first two, they actually work - ignoring some side effects, of course. Do you think it would be a good idea to not only legalize these "cures", but to give each their own legislative body funded by taxpayers to ensure their practitioners perform up to their standards? The government is acting as the enforcers for these charlatans, giving them a legal monopoly without oversight by anyone but themselves.
"No reason you could produce, from spiritual to scientific, is reason enough to tell others what to do in their public or private lives."
How about this: you're not allowed to bilk people out of their money by promising cures that don't work. You are not allowed to be a scam artist, or a thief. You are not allowed to steal from others.
That IS telling others what to do with their private lives: should those laws be rescinded?
10:37 AM
I agree with everything said here!
This is for Anon at 4:28 above (feel like I'm quoting scripture...)
I personally feel that the government shouldn't be putting their stamp of approval on alternative medicine at all. Until someone, ANYONE can tell me, for instance, what "toxins" are removed from a detoxification session then it really should be considered quackery.
I put this post up originally because I was amused that an agency handing out degrees in acupuncture - a practice that shows absolutely no difference to the patient whether the practitioner knows what they are doing or not - was being sued by another agency that does the same thing.
Not because the procedure doesn't work, but because of copyright violations. And that really made me laugh, so I posted it.
ok now i understand :)
A free person has every right to indulge in what others consider to be wrong, delusional or stupid."
and i fully agree with this comment. and please note. the ctcma member above which it is quit obvious that they are a member anonomus or not has a bias point of veiw of course defending themseves as the feel there under fire. hahaha. i think he/she has to do there homework rather than completely listening to what there association says well of course they have this point of veiw, i thought people were trained to be free thinkers now a days, too bad. the CTCMA member has just proven to me that there members must be very narrow minded..
and by the way the CTCMA is not a government body, it is a self regulatory body which was approved to govern its own members. if they were a government body (ie: police, fire fighters, revenue canada) they would be fully supported by tax payers money which is not the case, they are supported by there members money. so for that member to say there a government body is a joke in my opinion. They started just like the CNMCC did as an association. once they built enough members they were qualified for the health professions act then the
government approved them, so in reality, the government did not form them as the CTCMA propourts.
They went through the process like everyone else and formed themselves and applied and went through the steps. its time consuming, as i understand so i applude them on that ground, but for them to come out against another association for doing the exact same thing is unbelevable. now for instance they met the same termoil when they were starting there college from say the naturopaths, and the naturopaths said well we cover everything so we already have a profesion that covers chinese medicine so we dont need another regulatory body to cover that area, so we oppose them forming and or started sueing there associations member even though the CTCMA members are qulified as through education. hmm? i wonder if they werent given a chance by say, the naturopaths, and the naturopaths decided to say there unqualified how would they feel about that. what would they do. Probably defend themselves, oh as well when they started out, the CTCMA i mean the way the system was, the student went to a TCM school studied got a diploma and joined there association with a little test and went out into the world and started practicing. hmm? wait a minute, that sounds familiar dosent it? Oh and the registrar of the CTCMA, claming to be a Dr.TCM as i understand through scourcs that used to work with her know that she has no education in tcm in fact she just did 5 years prcticing hand acupuncture in the vancouver international tcm school before the CTCMA was formed, and because she was close freinds with with the founer of that school and well mason lou well she got grandfatherd into being a dr.tcm and as well did all the members before the CTCMA got into the health professions act, as so by passing the testing and the new two year university requirement. So in my opinion the practioners that by passed the the test and the university requirement, in my opinion should have to take the new test and go back to university for two years before they can take the CTCMA test so they forget everything then have to study tcm again to refresh! I think this would be fair.
say i go to a tcm school there a student loans available now thats nice. But uh oh i just found out, i have to go to university for 2 years to study somthing completly irellivant. then go to a tcm school after for a 5 year course? The student loans run out and guess what your hooped. There are only enough student loans for % years then what, i would have to dish out an additional 50 000 to go to university for 2 year, thats insaine. its no wonder ardene hadley supports the CTCMA because they are forcing students of tcm to go to the universities to waist in my opinion, there money. oh yeah one more thing.
the tcm program in china is only 5 years total for dr.tcm. in a university, but the university will not accept it as a program here sooo, they made private colleges here with 5 year programs. hmm makes cents, for the (CTCMA).
sorry for the rant. lol any questions, let me know
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
oh one question if the CTCMA is a government body, dose that mean they are government employees? lol
Just got rid of the triple post, there: had some problems with the Blogger comments, I'm guessing! 8)
Thanks for the contribution - and conversation!
Hehehe, this article and the subsequent comments are both insightful & hilarious.
To the first "Anonymous": It is your private life, not your public, that your peers and government should have influence over. IE, if you want to believe that homeopathy with cure you and jesus will save you, fine. Tell other people that and profit from it, NOT fine.
To the second "Anonymous": The treatment performed isn't the issue, its the accountability.
To the third & last "Anonymous": Its obvious that you are either a CNMCC member or someone a with a close connection to it. The argument in your post is largely composed of the same misinformation that Dr. Sky, the ringleader of the CNMCC fraud, uses to dupe the public. And to counter your point, yes they are the government sanctioned body.
And to "Thursday": You do mean that "ACU"puncture is the placebo fraud right? Scientific study clearly demonstrates a therapeutic effect from tissue stimulation by needles, but the difference between "acupoints" and just local stimulation falls within the placebo range. Acupuncture still works without the ridiculous mystical methodology.
Thank you all for the good read. Get the full story in context at http://www.ctvbc.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100927/bc_ctv_investigates_the_cure_2_100927/20100929?hub=BritishColumbiaHome
just noticed a typo.... I meant to say it is only your public life, not your private that should be influenced by others.
I hardly see the full story on ctv it's completely one sided the points are valid and I do agree that that part of this broadcast is true I got to go now but more later still I think it was one sided
as for your comment yes i do agree it was wrong, but people do business in many ways, this of course involves other peoples futures and it was wrong. i just hope everything works out for the students future. and we will keep it at that.
"A free person has every right to indulge in what others consider to be wrong, delusional or stupid."
I trust you read the reply to that comment ("A Free person..." etc.) above, yes?
People wanting to enter this profession need to realize that the CTCMA is NOT a government body; it's a corporation, but it's one that has been sanctioned by the BC Ministry of Health. Even though titles like "Doctor of TCM" have been used in Canada before the 90's, the CTCMA has trademarked all of them and now owns them. This is reflected in the 2010 lawsuit where the CTCMA sued the CNMCC in central Canada over ownership of the title.
The training in BC is the most superior in North America, comparable to perhaps California, but neither are superior to the training in China. In fact, I would say that the education in BC has been dumbed down by the CTCMA. The knowledge requirements of the CTCMA are not updated in accordance with innovations coming out of China. Students in schools have to learn those knowledge requirements, and then learn the "real way" on top of it. Schools spend so much time preparing students to meet licensing requirements of the CTCMA that there is less time for updated knowledge.
The CTCMA is worthless. We pay countless dollars into their private organization and yet they don't return the calls of members, and our quarterly newsletter that we receive in the mail is full of authoritarian and controlling directives. It's not about the professional community, it's about controling the practice for private profits.
If you are a Doctor of TCM in BC, your annual license fee will be around $1000. This rate increases every year, with no real added benefits. This organization is more concerned about collecting money for their coffers than it is improving the profession in Canada, and I have zero respect for them. The work they do is not meaningful and it's holding back natural medicine - which, I'm sure is the whole point of the CTCMA. MDs have a lot of requirements but once they're licensed they don't have to put up with nearly as much garbage as TCM practitioners.
My advice to newcomers is that you better have a passion for this profession, because the CTCMA will jade you. Every step of the way is met with fees and requirements that dispassionately suck your time and energy. And these requirements only keep increasing.
All the while... the governments in Canada refuse to actually ACCREDIT these programs. I am spending 4 years becoming a DTCM and it's only a college level diploma. At least in the United States they offer Bachelor, Masters, and PhDs in Oriental Medicine. In Canada you deal with dinky private colleges that are under-resourced and held back by politics.
Unfortunately, I do not see the situation improving. The direction of TCM in this province is the same that Naturhopaths have taken. They have sold out to biomedicine, and you require years of pre-med in university to learn NATURAL medicine which traditionally has nothing to do with hard sciences. The traditional methods of learning are being stamped out by industries, politics, and private profits.
I strongly advise future practitioners to deal with the licensing titles as little as possible, and only join programs that will redeem your traditional knowledge, not cast it out.
Holistic and natural medicine in Canada are being held back by politics, and hoity toity authoritarians that are in love with their own power. The CTCMA is no exception. My hope is that people continue to sue this organization into oblivion. Public safety matters but the CTCMA does little in that department. Healing is an art, not a draconian institution.
As for the other comments in this thread... TCM has real healing modalities and scientific biomedicine are not the soul routes to healing on planet earth. Maybe if "Thursday" took his head out of his ass and did some reading, he would realize that.
...And maybe if you read anything other than reinforcement of your own ideas, you'd realize that "holistic medicine" is useless drivel that does more harm than good.
I'd suggest starting with Ben Goldacre's book "Bad Science", so you can recognize what bad science looks like. It's an easy read and a good starting point.
Know what they call holistic medicine that works? Medicine.
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